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Post by Zoo Master on Apr 13, 2009 23:38:55 GMT -5
ralph engan was the smoothest bowler I have ever seen. He was the Fred Astaire of getting to the line. He never ever beat Hornreich.
You guys do not remember or were not at central in 1967 to see just how great Richie was. He beat jim godman the pba hof with about 18 titles including the toc in 1967. he kicked his ass in doubles bowling with ernie against lemon and godman. and destroyed him when godman came back again for singles. in both matches godman averaged close to 240 and could not win. richie had so much talent from 16-21 and threw it away gambling. he's still good, but not even close to what he should have been.
Logged
Ex Deg
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Post by Zoo Master on Apr 14, 2009 22:49:03 GMT -5
There were alot of good bowlers in central but pairs and match-ups were always key to winning.
I remember larry litchstien bowling with a woman in doubles and kicking ass, then they knew who dotty fothergill was. he also bowled kenny barber and chopped him up pretty good, he was the only lefty i knew who could hit central, rags never found a pair he liked but he was always game to bowl.
One of the best matches i saw was dewey and ernie, the first couple ernie beat him easy and dewey's backer (darba) said lets step it up and ernie agreed. Next match they both were lined in 259 to 258 ernie, next 268 to 300 ernie, next match 257 to 258 ernie, the place was buzzing from the begining and only got better, and so did the money, darba loved to bet, dewey didn't look like he was going to stop striking so ernie like the good hustler said he was getting tired, they stepped up the action some more and ernie was right, dewey beat him the next 2 and the match was over. It was like ali and fraiser in their prime. Who really won. Ernie won a nice piece of change and darba lost a couple 100, the late comers looking to make a score thinking ernie would never lose didn't mind, they got their moneys worth, this is why we love the action, just to see some great matches. I know thats why i was there
sickle st
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Post by Zoo Master on Apr 15, 2009 17:32:06 GMT -5
Lemon never knew me. I always bet in the back. Same with hornreich. Became friendly with Richie at Fiesta. have not seen him in a few years, although I know you can find him at maple every afternoon. remember buffalo. saw him in florida over christmas. he got out of the slam last year or the year before after doing five years in Federal. He's flipping burgers in a bowling alley.
still would not trust him as far as i could throw him. and he weighs 300+
ExDeg
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Post by Zoo Master on Apr 19, 2009 1:52:47 GMT -5
To me Jeff was second to Dewey. Again Dewey only bowled for a year or so and Jeff bowled forever so hard to say. As far as why Jeff never turned pro is very simple. He made a lot more money betting basketball and football then he could ever have made on tour. Most of you don't know this but Jeff is a genius. He had bookies in many states and would bet both teams in their home town and catch middles for BIG money. I used to play golf with Jeff,Joey B. and Teata every Wed. in Paramus. We played partners and switched every week. Teata is about a 4 handicap and the rest of us were about 12's so whoever had Teata got strokes.
Jeff had ice in his veins I swear. If he needed to make a putt for the $ he made it....period. Last I heard he owned a couple of restaurants and would use his plane to back and forth....yes he is a pilot. Till next time.....
JK...
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Post by Zoo Master on Apr 19, 2009 14:48:40 GMT -5
I would have to say that the biggest success story of a guy who was just a hustler has to be Ernie Schlegel. He really never worked except here and there for a bowling alley and only so he could practice for free. He's come a long way from his modest beginnings as a janitor's son.
Most of the other action bums that I knew had legitimate jobs during the day and went to the action on the weekends, like myself.
It's a great subject Butch lets see if anyone else can come up with some names and how they have succeded.
JK...
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Ernie is still a hustling bum when he can be. Saw him at Carolier less than ten years ago hustling a backer and still yelling fruit salad. Still remember what a turd he was when he beat Randy Pedersen for that 50g. Chirping to Randy the entire match attempting to blow his concentration. Randy left a stoned 8 in the tenth to lose.
Ernie has always been a scumbag in my book, although I made more money on him than anybody else at Central. Do not remember ever walking away a loser on any of his matches I bet on for at least six months.
EXDeg...
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Nice talk bigshot. I guess you should drop the "EX" from your name because you surely talk and act like a degenerate and I'm sure you are.
What balls. Ernie has more talent in his pinky than you could ever hope to have. I can hear you now in the backround "Yeah Ernie fruit salad babe" as you collect your bet and then on the way home call him a scumbag. You f**kin lowlife. It's guys like you that made the action a piece of shit as it progressed.
In the beginning it was just a bunch of guys lookin to make a buck gambling. For a while I thought you might have put that part of your life behind you but I guess not. Well we know you're not one of those degenerates who have become a success.
JK...
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JK, you are 100% right. You might have bet on Ernie Ex Deg but you never knew him as a friend like JK and I did.
He has a terriffic wife and family, lives clean and sober and is the longest active member of the PBA. Has a nice home in Washington State and is is good businessman who loves the game.
He tries very hard to promote the sport and raise the prize money by advocating an arena set up for more attendance and (don't laugh) but the way tennis is played for concentrated excitment.
Sure we had some times we're not proud of but, it was alot of fun and laughs and we've moved on. You obviously haven't.
SW...
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The fifties and sixties were priceless, it was a time that the action bowlers just mainly wanted action. Sure they wanted to win $$$ but being in action was the most important thing.
Characters were plentifull, both on the lanes and betting on the side, the seventies were more about the money, the eighties were'nt bad, averything after that was straight downhill.
Old Timer...
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Moved on to believing that schlegel is a classy bowler. Stevie, you and that dipshit Jk are the ones that are blind. He will still try to distract his competition when he can.
Did you geniuses know that the 25 second rule was implemented because of Schlegel? The pros were compalining years ago that he took too much time to deliver. I will admit that he is still a clutch bowler and does well on the ridiculous team challenge no shot conditions. I still would not trust him as far as I can spit.
ExDeg...
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The best was ernie by far, he beat all of them from dewey to ralph, jake, lemon, ritchie, even the great joe s, we made alot of money together. Only the manhattan clique, if he let you bet on him you made money.
The ex was saying those things because he was still mad because he lost all the time. This is fact, I grew up with him and went to the action with him. Their was the bronx clique 2 or 3 of them depending on what lanes you bowled out of, the same with everybody, thats what made the action, each clique thought their bowler from brooklyn, queens or longisland was tops, only the money separated who was and that definitly was him.
Sicle st...
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How do you rate Ernie against Jeff Kitter from the mid seventies to the time Jeff gave up action bowling, did they ever bowl each other, did they ever call each other out.
Regie...
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Sickle St, you sound like you were there in the days of all the real action. Do you agree with JK and me that Gun Post was the best place for action in the whole tri state area?
Were you there when Ernie and Lemon wiped everybody out in doubles?
SW...
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sicke st, if you were in central in 67, schlegel never beat richie or lemon. Ernie was great as long as the shot was outside. Ernie could never play inside because he is blind in one eye.
So many here really do not remember how great richie was. does anybody here remember how great charlie faino was from 1970-1975. he lived off of action and raised a family doing so. he was unbeatable during this era and rarely lost.
When urethane lanes came into play in 1976, charlie's full roller was not as effective and jeff kitter became the king. somebody asked who was better jeff or ernie, at their best kitter was, from 76 until his retirement in 81. he was the best in the country.
Ernie was never the best at any point in the sixties. of course the competition was much stronger in the sixties.
ExDeg...
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Post by Zoo Master on Apr 20, 2009 15:57:13 GMT -5
How did the Horn do playing the gutter?? I know I saw Richie get beat but I never saw Dewey get beat so I still disagree about who was better. If you never saw Dewey you really can't comment. Any of you oldtimers who saw both of them give us a vote. Another great inside shooter before central was a guy named Frankie Medici out of Tremont Lanes in the Bronx. I have a great beeper story but I'll save it for another time.
JK...
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Saw Joey Berardi at his father's funeral about a month ago. He is living in Staten Island and sells MRI equipment. He said he has his own company. Another great talent (like the Horn) who had a big gambling problem.
JK...
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It was Berardi's wife that had the problem. A degenerate gambler. That is the reason, he quit the tour. Whatever he was winning, she was losing.
And Berardi's best in ACTION was not close to how good Richie was in ACTION. As to the tour, Berardi was the first bowler that i ever saw win a stop playing inside the 5th diamond. This HOF won the US OPEN, MASTERS AND TOC.
ExDegenerate...
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JK, I heard enuf about Dewey from many others and Richie to comment. Dewey was like Ernie, he could not play inside with rubber. Of course, Ernie is blind in one eye. Richie could do so much more and Dewey was only around for such a short period. Richie many times betting 1g out of his pocket. He accomplished so much in about a five or six year period. Saw him make the 7-10 to win a match at central betting a grand. Richie showed no pressure. One day in vegas, Burton challenged Richie for 1g to a three game total wood match. Richie said where he came from, they bowl one game at a time. He whipped out 10g for one game and Burton disappeared like a skunk.
It would have been great to see Dewey, but I went to Central in 1967. I take nothing away from Dewey but Richie was the best around in his time.
Ex Degen,
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They BOTH had a gambling problem, trust me. I know Joey and Donna very well. They are a lot of fun to be around and I hope those days are over for them. Haven't hung around with them for a long time but it was great to see them (unfortunately) at Joe Sr.'s funeral.
All I said was Dewey was the best for the short time that he was around......he was unbeatable and he didn't HAVE to play 4th arrow so why does it matter if he could? I still want to hear from those who saw both.
JK...
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Why does it matter?. Because in the real action days with rubber, not too many could play inside-richie, lemon, ralph, etc. And if Dewey would have been around in 67 he could have bowled the hornet. Richie feared nobody and too many feared him, And I'm sure Dewey must have lost when you were not around. Dewey must have thrown a full roller. he probably played the track most of the time and was not that tough on oily conditions. the horn was great on dry and oily. We will never know. My cash would have been on the horn. It's like the dispute on who was better, the horn or lemon. in the words of lemon's brother pete the former singer as told to the cane a few years ago richie was better. how much better a few pins. in my book they were equal. lemon another waste of talent due to gambling. 6 wins on the tour in less than ten years, including two majors in 1971, which got him into the pbahof. been dealing in AC for close to 20 years.
ExDegenerate...
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My apologies. Joe's wife's name is Debbie not Donna and I have no clue why I wrote that except that at my age I'm partially braindead.
The other thing I wanted to say was: Gambling is a disease like drinking or anything else. Take that away from the Berardi's and they are super people.
JK...
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Never knew or heard about berardi's gambling problem. Saw him last about 20 years ago. if you say so and apparently you knew him well, I can buy that.
Another reason why ROTH was so great on tour, no gambling not that he ever bet alot in action. Richie had the talent to be great on tour and lemon would have won many more stops, if not for the degenerate gambling. The downfall of many in all sports. ask pete rose and denny mcclain, back in the joint again a few years ago. of courst it never affected michael jordan who has millions to blow.
ExDegenerate...
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Post by Zoo Master on Apr 20, 2009 15:57:35 GMT -5
As good as these great sixties action bowlers were, how do they stack up against Jeff Kidda, I could be wrong but I think Jeff bowled in more big action matches than anyone else and stayed on top longer than the rest.
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Why didn't Jeff ever turn pro.
Zoo Master...
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To me Jeff was second to Dewey. Again Dewey only bowled for a year or so and Jeff bowled forever so hard to say. As far as why Jeff never turned pro is very simple. He made a lot more money betting basketball and football then he could ever have made on tour. Most of you don't know this but Jeff is a genius. He had bookies in many states and would bet both teams in their home town and catch middles for BIG money. I used to play golf with Jeff,Joey B. and Teata every Wed. in Paramus. We played partners and switched every week. Teata is about a 4 handicap and the rest of us were about 12's so whoever had Teata got strokes.
Jeff had ice in his veins I swear. If he needed to make a putt for the $ he made it....period. Last I heard he owned a couple of restaurants and would use his plane to back and forth....yes he is a pilot. Till next time.....
JK...
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Jeff kidder got really good when urethane lanes came in 1976. before that charlie faino was the best in the country for about 5 years. jeff retired from gambling a few years ago, lives in Hilton head and plays the market for a few clients as told to me by his former partner Bill Daly. Daly also kept a diary of all the matches they were involved in. To say kidder was the second best, you probably never saw much of Hornreich. He beat up on better bowlers. kidder did not have alot of tough competition, although he did crush Roth at Rainbow in a doubles match. And he never went on tour, because he gave up the game to become a professional gambler. he was one of the biggest around, betting 10g a game and up.
ExDegenerate...
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Ex Degen,
Jeff was making big gambling bets before he started to bowl action. He quit the action because it was hard to find big money matches.
JK...
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jk, that is not true. I first met Jeff when Charlie tuna brought him to Raceway when he was about 15 in 1969 or 1970. Jeff started making those big bets on sports after 1975-I knew him from 1969-1975. We used to call him Young Jeffrey. HE bowled alot of doubles with JOhnny Bell during the early seventies. They rarely if ever lost. He quit the game in 1981 to focus on being a professional gambler. These are facts. I came back to the game in 1982 and he was gone.
ExDeg...
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More on Jeff. You should locate his partner, Bill Daly. He has a diary of all the matches they were involved in. Heard, again only heard that he carried his own pins.
He did challenge Earl Anthony at Garden City. Earl told him to come to Seattle. He did. For reasons unknown, the match never took off. He did not always win the big ones. In 1978, he traveled to Baltimore and either bowled Pete Couture or george Pappas. Jeff lost around 5g.
ExDog...
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Post by Zoo Master on Apr 21, 2009 16:38:53 GMT -5
Some facts about Richie Hornreich, so much talent but being a degenerate gambler was his downfall(horses, casinos, etc, etc, etc). Could have been a great pba bowler.
1. at the age of 16 finished 10TH in the world invitational in chicago against the best around(carter, weber, etc.)
2. averaged 217, unheard of in those days at bedford bowl.
3. first to average 200(206) at the toughest alley in the east, bowlmor
4. won the vargo one year, 4 lb. wood, with a 1060 or 1080 for 5.
5. destroyed jim godman, pbahof at central in 1967 after he had just won the firestone.
6 etc, etc, etc
ExDegenerate...
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I remember Kenny Barber from Kings Lanes on Flatbush ave. He threw a real big ball for the time, was a lot of fun to watch, who rembers the Dwoskin brothers, Lenny the cane and his con artist brother who served time in Texas
Old Brooklyn Action Bowler...
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buffalo is out of the slam after 5 years on probation, lives not far from ft. lauderdale and fries burgers for a living. Were you old timers at seaview? did anybody witness the iggy heart attack match? And it's hard to believe you guys felt dewey was the best and not hornreich. from what the horn said, dewey was great but was not that good of an inside shooter. And ironically, schlegel was from newburgh while bowling the action in the 60s.
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Never heard of Seaview where was it? I did not witnes the fake heart attack but it was THE topic of discussion for years afterward. OK here's the deal........Richie Hornreich was a great action shooter one of the best ever. Richie played inside everywhere almost never played outside atleast not when I watched him so how are we to know if he could play outside Dewey was either outside or down and in if he had to play 3rd arrow he would have gotten nose bleeds. Two very different games both great bowlers but for that period of a year or so NOBODY and I mean NOBODY beat Dewey. You could watch him bowl 10 games and never see him shoot anything other than a one pin spare usually the 4 pin. I'm sure the reason was he wanted every ball to be packed so of course he would leave more 4 pins than 10 pins. I'm sorry you never got to see him bowl it was a thing of beauty. Oh by the way spoke to a friend of mine in Fishkill today and he told me that Dewey started a league last year at Fishkill Lanes was averaging 228 and quit after 6 weeks because he didn't like the shot. ( must have been inside) Ha!
Later
JK...
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Ernie Schlegel didn't move to Newburgh until the very late 60's or even later. He lived in my neighborhood(Inwood) in upper Manhattan. Another memory. Ernie and I went to a small old house in the Bronx named Boston Road Lanes. He bowled a cab driver named Sy Million. Sy broke us and had to drive us home in his cab
Inside, outside, all I know is Dewey Blair was inhuman and never lost to anybody. He was a machine.
JK, bring pictures.
Anybody bowl action at Whitestone? That was a real good house with all the regulars.
SW...
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ernie was a resident of newburgh when central was at it's biggest in 1967. so the question has been answered. The horn was better, since he could play any part of the lane, from the gutter(leader lanes in brooklyn) through the fourth diamond-which not many could in those days(lemon could and naturally ralph who could hook the whole lane). seaview located in canarsie. seaview and colony and avenue m also in brooklyn were the biggest in the very early sixties. philly marino was the king at seaview and colony.
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Buffalo is alive and working the snack bar at sawgrass lanes in sawgrass florida. His brother the cane got hitched again a few years ago, lives not far from Sawgrass and disappeared from the game two years ago. his site has been empty that long. nobody had a better memory for stories than him, from iggy to horn to lemon, etc. Too bad the old days disappeared. nobody needed a lock and the sailors were always there, seven, eight, nine down and still bowling as long as they had cash. CENTRAL was awesome. If you were winning you could win a ton. if you were stuck, there was always a match to get you out. Why did it have to burn down?
Real Smart...
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Post by Zoo Master on May 10, 2009 1:01:56 GMT -5
1961, Butch vs. Gene Jacobs at Quenton Lanes Brooklyn.
It was a Friday night, Paul and I went for burgers at Cousins on Coney Island Ave. We finished about 1 am and were about to go to Ave M when Paul suggested checking out Quenton Lanes across the street, it was a small old bowling alley with 12 lanes. I had never bowled there but said ya, why not. I walked in and asked the counterman if they ever had any action here, it so happens the owner Gene Jacobs was standing there and said yaw wanna bowl me kid, I said why not and he told me to pick the pair.
I didn’t know Gene, it turns out he was best of friends with Stoop who first started bowling there when he was a teenager and Gene backed him once he became real good, besides owning the bowling alley Gene also owned vending machines.
From what I found out later from Stoop, Gene was a pretty good bowler years ago but was now over the hill. As soon as I saw him through a few practice balls I knew this was a mismatch, I was at my best at that time. To make a long story short I beat him 8 straight for about $1500, big money way back then. He had cleaned out his pockets along with the register and asked to bowl on a marker, I politely said I never bowl on markers, I didn’t really know him and didn’t know if I’d get paid, plus when bowling on markers you never know when to end it. He said fine and insisted on taking us for breakfast across the street, a real gentlemen.
The next day when I went to Ave M and asked Stoop if Gene would have been good for the markers he said he already heard about the match, he also said I could’ve beat Gene for 10 grand because he was that much of a chaser and it would have been good as gold, that I would have been paid the next day.
He also said I blew my chance at the biggest score of my life because he called Gene and told him never to bowl me again that I was 25 pins better than him...
butch
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